[piano intro] - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein, welcome to Side by Side.

My guest today grew up on a farm just outside Kinston, North Carolina.

She graduated from North Carolina State, and left the South for a marketing job in New York City.

That did not last.

She became a waitress, met her future husband, moved back to North Carolina, and opened a restaurant in Kinston.

She now owns four entrepreneurial restaurants, but that's not all she does, by far.

Today, we'll talk about the need to follow your dreams with restaurant entrepreneur, Vivian Howard.

- [Announcer] Funding for a Side by Side with Nico Qubein is made possible by.

- [Announcer] Here's to those that rise and shine, to friendly faces doing more than their part, and to those who still enjoy the little things.

You make it feel like home.

Ashley HomeStore, this is home.

- [Announcer] For over 60 years, the everyday leaders at the Budd Group have been committed to providing smart, customized facility solutions to our clients and caring for the communities we serve.

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[upbeat music] ♪ - Vivian, welcome to Side by Side.

You are a restaurant entrepreneur.

We know that a high percentage of restaurants that open up, regretfully, don't stay in business.

Where did you get the courage to start not one, not two, not three, but four restaurants in Kinston, in Charleston, South Carolina, in Wilmington, North Carolina?

It takes faithful courage and entrepreneurial spirit to do that.

- I think that the first restaurant, we were just really naive, and felt like we could do anything, and then we opened Chef and the Farmer, and it was somewhat successful, and then we thought, "Wow, we really can do anything, 'cause this has been really hard."

[laughing] - Yeah, and you've been at that for 17 years.

- Yes, June will be 17 years.

- So you've done something right, clearly.

- It's, you know, constant gentle pressure, I guess.

[laughing] - Are restaurants profitable?

- You know, that's a question that I think the whole industry is circling right now.

I think restaurants can support the people that work in them.

I don't feel as if the equation of a restaurant as we see it today really can support more than the people that work in it in a really, in a life kind of affirming kind of way.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And other people.

I think that's what we're learning, you know, just our, the equation doesn't quite work.

- So what you're really saying is that enough money to pay the servers, the cooks, and maybe the owner a salary, but beyond that is difficult to produce?

- Yes, and I don't think they typically, if you're doing things super, with quality in mind, and paying everyone the way that you can, I don't think that restaurants really generate a whole lot of profit, and I'm probably not the person that should be saying that.

- Run us through this formula.

What per percentage of, what percentage goes to workforce?

What percentage goes to overhead?

What percentage goes to actual materials?

You know, the, is there a standard formula, 30% goes to ingredients?

- Well, you want to keep them at certain percentages, but on where you are, and your, what you're doing, those percentages can be very different.

But I encourage you to think about like, let's say, Chef and the Farmer.

- That's the one in Kinston?

- That's one in Kinston.

We are open five nights a week from five to 9:00 PM, let's say.

The hours are shortened now because of COVID.

Luckily, people like to eat out earlier now.

- [Nido] Yes.

- [laughing] So let's say five to 9:00 PM.

That's four hours a day, but we have staff, and chefs, and people in that building- - [Nido] For eight hours.

- Starting at 8:00 AM.

- Yes.

- Six days a week.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And so I think that's part of it.

I think that we, as a culture of diners, don't necessarily place as much value in food, I mean like, monetary value in food as we do in other things, and I think that really shows up in a restaurant setting.

And I think, you know, think about this.

Chef and the Farmer seats, let's say, 85 people.

On any given day, it takes 20 to serve those 85 people.

You know what I mean?

- 20 in the workforce.

- 20 in the workforce, so we may seat that restaurant three times if we're really lucky, and you know, that's like what, 160 people.

- Yes.

- So what's the percentage, 20 people to 160?

I'm not good at math.

- [Nido] Yes.

- That's why I'm a restaurateur, probably.

- [Nido] Yes.

[both laughing] - And what got you in the restaurant business in the first place?

Is it love of cooking?

Is it what?

- Well, as you mentioned, I moved to New York to pursue a career in journalism.

- And you started as a server in a restaurant?

- Yes, yes, and so I found the concept of the restaurant was Southern food via Africa, and I just, the restaurant was a opening.

I was on the opening staff.

I had never thought about food as a subject, food as anything other than, you know, what I ate, and the chef, Scott Barton is his name, he told stories around every dish that we were serving, and I was just like, blown away, and so I started working in the kitchen as a means to translate that experience into a career in food writing, so I always wanted to be a food writer, and I found that working in the kitchen, I really enjoyed it.

I enjoyed the comradery of the kitchen, and I enjoyed like, working toward a common goal, and so I just and kept doing that.

I was good at it, and it was a lot easier to get a job in the kitchen than it was to get a job at a paper or a magazine.

[laughing] - Yeah, I see, so you love cooking?

- Yes, I love cooking.

- And you've become a writer, and you've become a television personality, in fact, a New York times best seller that you wrote, and you continue to have these restaurants, and obviously, they're working.

You opened two restaurants in the middle of the pandemic.

- When a train is moving, sometimes even the pandemic can't stop it.

- Yes.

So you had determined your plans before?

- [Vivian] Yes.

- And you kept going.

Are the restaurants doing okay?

- Yes, they're actually doing well.

One is a biscuit and hand pie shop called Handy and Hot, and the other is Lenoir, and it's a more upscale, dinner-only restaurant, and it's named after Lenoir County in North Carolina where I live.

- [Nido] Yes.

- But lots of people wanna call it Lenoir, because it's, it looks French.

- You can charge more if you call it Lenoir.

- [Vivian] I know.

[both laughing] - Yes, so I'm intrigued by that.

Why Charleston?

- Well, you know, I had cooked in Kinston, North Carolina for like, 17 years, and the opportunity to do something in a world-renowned dining city.

- Tourist attraction, Lenoir.

- Yes, yes, was something that I couldn't turn down.

It's also the opportunity- - [Nido] It's expensive.

- Well, it's an opportunity in a hotel, so I- it was an opportunity that usually only men get.

- [Nido] I see.

- And I would be a fool to turn something like that down.

- Good for you, so it's located inside of a hotel?

- [Vivian] Absolutely, yes.

- Does that mean you get free rent?

- Well, when I, yes, I stay in the hotel?

- No, free rent for the restaurant.

- Well, the restaurant is technically part of the hotel, but it's a relationship that, you'll see more of this happening, where the hotel really wants the restaurant to feel and to eat like it's independent.

- [Nido] Yes.

- So I would say that my relationship with the hotel down there has been really positive in that, you know, some of the stressors that I was explaining before, about how as restaurateurs, we're stretched so thin, and we don't necessarily have the same infrastructure of support, like HR, and that sort of thing that you would have in a bigger system, and so the hotel provides all of those things for us, and it really makes the experience doable.

- Clearly, you're not managing yourself each of those restaurants?

- [Vivian] No, sir.

- You higher managers.

- [Vivian] Absolutely.

- Run me through the process of how you identify a manager.

What are the skills that you look for, and where do you find them?

- That is a great question.

[laughing] You know, I've had ex- I've had really positive experience moving people up through our businesses.

I think it's really easy to identify people that you can work with, people who are inspiring, people who are reliable, people who have your same ideas of equality in mind, and so I've always had the best success with hiring from within, and promoting from within, but I was lucky enough in Charleston to have someone find me.

My general manager there was the general manager of Husk for like, 12 years, 10 years, I don't know, a long time, and she is just a true professional, and I would say that the one thing that I've learned from her that she has, that all the other managers I've worked with do not, is that she will follow up.

[laughing] Like, follow up with everyone, follow up with me, follow up, follow up, follow up, 'cause no one likes following up.

I don't like to be followed up on, either.

- Well, but execution is the name of the game.

- [Vivian] Absolutely.

- An idea is a dime a dozen, but to execute on the idea is where the magic magic happens.

What keeps you up at night?

- I sleep pretty sound.

- Financial considerations?

- Yes, absolutely.

You know, this is such an uncertain time, and an uncertain time in the restaurant industry.

It's all, it's very risky.

- Have you ever had a restaurant that failed?

- You know, not, I wouldn't say I had a restaurant that failed, but at the beginning of the pandemic, I made the very unpopular decision to close The Boiler Room, which was a restaurant we had in Kinston.

It was an oyster and burger bar, and everyone loved it.

Everyone loved it.

- So why did you close it?

- Because the resources to run two restaurants of that scale in the town where we are, and I don't mean diners, necessarily.

I mean staff, I mean that type of resource, just ever since we opened The Boiler Room, it was a struggle.

- [Nido] I see.

- And I could see in my mind's eye, the pandemic, I could see that if it was a struggle before that, that at the, on the other side of it, we were gonna have less of everything.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And I had to make a decision.

It was like I had to.

- And I say this respectfully, Kinston is a small city, versus Wilmington, which is a thriving city, versus Charleston, which is a tourist attraction, so I get that.

So how often do you look at your numbers?

Is it a daily?

Do you get some kind of- - [Vivian] Every morning, yes.

- Every morning, so every restaurant feeds in to you- - [Vivian] Yes.

- Somehow a dashboard that says we have this many people.

Do you look at the average ticket sale, what do you look at?

- Yeah, so we have a, like, the managers every night send an email from each restaurant to their team, and I'm always on that email.

- [Nido] Copied on it.

- Yes, and so it goes through things like number of covers, average check price, comps, problems.

I mean, sometimes these things are- - [Nido] Yeah.

- Problems and solutions, and notes about what we need to be mindful of the next day.

And I've tried to keep it consistent between the operations, but that's impossible.

- Well, different restaurants, different locations.

So what are the specific elements you look at?

Do you look at, how do you identify profitability on any given night?

Do you have in your mind a standard that says, "In this restaurant, I want the ticket sale to be $43 on average, and this one, it has to be 63 or, or 23."

Just educate me how does- I owned a company one time that had 240 bakeries in the country, and I learned very quickly how to be analytical about all the statistics of each store.

So we knew, in fact, we had a store in Kinston, called Great Harvest Bread Company.

- [Vivian] Oh yeah.

- And we knew how to look at the numbers, where the percentages have to be.

Different than a restaurant where you, you know, you may be serving alcohol.

You serve alcohol in your restaurants?

- Oh yeah, well, not all of them, but Handy and Hot, no, it's a bakery.

- What percentage of profitability comes from alcohol?

- Well, unfortunately for restaurants, alcohol is one of the main drivers of profit.

- Yes, of course.

What's your multiple on a bottle of wine?

- I, why would I tell you that?

- [Nido] Your mark up.

[both laughing] 'Cause I know the answer, at least I can guess the answer.

- Well, it depends on the bottle of wine.

- Is it two times, is it two and a half times?

- It's, it really depends on the bottle of wine.

- [Nido] Yes, of course.

The more expensive the less multiple.

- The less.

- [Nido] Yes.

- So, but I would say that being in Kinston for instance, you know, the alcohol profit, alcohol is generally about 30% of your revenue, but being in Kinston, where many of our diners were driving more than hour home or- - [Nido] Oh, I see.

- We would, our alcohol sales were often more like 20, 18 to 20%.

- So you have customers who drive in to go to the restaurant?

- [Vivian] Yes.

- From a distance.

- [Vivian] Yes.

- Yeah.

Just seriously, Vivian, most of your customers, I suspect, know the multiple, because if they drink a certain kind of wine, for example, like, I would know, in many restaurants, what the cost of that bottle is, and so I can tell what the multiple is.

A country club sometimes will charge you only time and a half.

- [Vivian] Right.

- Because you're a member, and they make it other places.

All right, so you said you sleep soundly.

Does that mean you sleep like a baby, you get up every two hours and cry?

- Maybe.

[both laughing] I really do hate waking up in the middle of the night, because if I do wake up, my mind never shuts down.

- I mean, you're saying, look at these emails the last thing at night before you sleep.

I mean, that's kind of damaging to your peace and tranquility.

- Well, I don't necessarily look at them at night.

I'd like to think that I'm in bed before any of the restaurants close, and any of the managers- - [Nido] So in the morning?

- Yes, in the morning.

- [Nido] Yeah.

- And I also try to wait until I am in my office before I at it, because I try not to engage with my phone in the morning.

- That's smart, very smart.

So Vivian, clearly you're a good cook.

- [Vivian] A good what, a good cook?

- Chef.

- Sure, yes.

- You're a great chef, right?

- Yes.

- Otherwise, you wouldn't be in this, otherwise, you wouldn't be on television, otherwise, you would not have written your book.

You certainly wouldn't, you know, I know a lot of people who are great chefs, and love to cook, but they don't know how to run a restaurant.

You have mastered the entrepreneurial piece, as well as the talent piece of how to prep food in a meaningful way, in an appetizing way.

Is there a specialty for you?

I mean, is there a, I don't know.

I love food, but I don't understand the sectors.

So is there some special cuisine that you are an expert in, or are you sort of continental global, et cetera?

- Well, I would say that I wanna correct you and say that I am not, I've not mastered the science behind restaurants.

- [Nido] Yeah, but you have four restaurants.

- Yes, but- - I admire the entrepreneurial spirit in you.

- Yes, no, oh, I am, I have a tremendous entrepreneurial spirit, but I think that my strengths more are my ability to convey a message on a plate, to connect with people in person, and on TV.

I mean, I would say that the television show, really, really was a driving force for me to have all these other things, you know?

- [Nido] Yes, yes.

- And I would say that I am a better storyteller than anything else, and I have multiple mediums.

So I think I can tell a story on a plate.

I can tell a story to you.

I can write a story.

My cookbooks are narrative cookbooks, so they're very much just as much about the story behind the food as they are about the recipe themselves.

But in terms of the cuisine that I'm known for, it's, I would say it's very hyper regional, and tied to the cuisine of the rural, agricultural South.

- Well, you grew up in deep run on a farm.

- [Vivian] Yes.

- That has hogs, and tobacco, and so on.

Your parents own the farm, and so on.

Someone would expect you would have some kind of impact that comes out of it.

- Absolutely, absolutely, I mean, I would say that when you look at the farm-to-table movement in this country, that my name would in some way be attached to it.

- So what does that mean, the farm-to-table?

It means local, healthy, fresh, what does it mean?

- Well, for me it means like, knowing the person that grows something for you, or in, you know, that sounds so precious, but I think at its core, really what it is is like, cooking with raw ingredients.

So, you know, buying a whole sweet potato, and cooking that, rather than buying, you know, the diced sweet potato in the grocery store, or in the can, or in the freezer.

So I think, depending on where we live, and what we have access to, if you really boil down the farm-to-table movement, from my perspective, it would be about not wasting anything, eating less meat, making use of whole animals.

- You grew up on a hog farm.

- I know that I know, but I, it's called growing up on a hog farm, and becoming, you know, an adult with your own ideas.

I don't mean no meat.

- [Nido] No, I understand.

- I mean less meat.

Meat is celebration, which is really the way that rural people, people who grew most of their own food, that's the way that they always ate, you know?

It was like, don't waste anything, you know, that milk's past their expiration date.

Well, let's just call it buttermilk.

- [Nido] Yes.

[Vivian laughing] Yes, yes, so that's very interesting, everything that you've said to me about food.

So you, are you particularly focused on organic food versus stimulated, my word, stimulated foods that are sometime artificial, or have more chemicals in them, or- - No, I don't really, I don't really as prescribe to that mantra.

Like, I think that organic is great, if you can buy organic, you can access organic, but I know a lot of farmers who do everything to the best of their ability.

They take care of the soil, they take care of the land, they take care of the air, and they're not doing it organically.

And I think that there are GMOs that make a lot of sense for us.

So I think that people are too polarized on the issue.

It's far more complicated than we give it credit for.

You know, as I said, I grew up on a hog farm.

My parents are really good people.

They are stewards of the Earth, and they are multi-generation farmers, and the issue of hog farming is complex, and so I wish that we would all kind of, I guess, educate ourselves more, and know what we're talking about.

- Yeah.

[both laughing] Tell me this, what did you major in at NC State?

- Believe it or not, English.

- I believe it.

- Well, that's not something that many people like, choose at NC State, but I had a great experience.

- You're a writer, and I can see your inclination to wanting to write and all that.

What's next for you?

I mean, for example, are you, you have four restaurants, is it your plan eventually to have 25?

- [Vivian] No.

- Grow it, sell it to some private equity somewhere?

- No, you know, I think that I have come to the realization that at least for me, bigger's not always better, and I really want to, what's next for me?

I'd like to stay put for a little bit.

- [Nido] Stabilize.

- Yes, and then really give myself the space to figure out what's next.

I feel like my whole career has been very reactionary.

Like, this happens, I react, this opportunity comes, I react, and the reaction is always like, "I'm gonna do everything.

I'm gonna do everything," because like, that's, you don't get opportunities every day.

But the pandemic forced us all to kind of slow down, and actually my slowing down is just kind of starting.

- [Nido] Yes?

- Because I'd opened those restaurants.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And I'm like, "Wait, wait, I never got to make the sourdough.

Where's the-" you know?

[laughing] - So Vivian, tell me what, why did you call these four restaurants different names?

Is it because the cuisine in each one is different, and therefore you had a different name?

'Cause it seems to me from a business perspective, if you named them all the same thing, you can advertise easier, and you can print, you know, menus easier, and so on.

- You know, another very good question.

I would say that the reason our restaurants all have different names and different personalities, if you will, is because more than anything, I am a creative, and so I love the process of imagining what a restaurant will be, what it will feel like, what it will serve, what it will stand for, what the brand will look like, what the name will be like, what the servers will wear, you know, all of that.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And then I like to imagine what the next thing will be.

You know?

I think that's very.

- So businesses is a secondary.

- No, oh my gosh, I don't want that to be the case, but that's probably- I don't necessarily, I'm not trying to make- - You don't ignore it.

- No, no.

- But it's not your first love.

- No, I, it's not what motivates me.

I know it's really important, but it's an, I know about myself that it's not what motivates me.

- Yeah.

Do your restaurants get involved in the community, and if so, how?

- Yes, you know, I think that restaurants are hubs for community service all the time.

I think that restaurateurs and chefs, you know, so many of us get into doing this because we like to care for people, and we like to give to people, and so, and we have this gift that, this talent of cooking, and it's something that everybody, it's the one thing we all share.

- With schools, are you feeding the homeless, et cetera?

- We have a soup kitchen in Kinston called Mary's Kitchen, and we do, we were, prior to the pandemic, cooking there once a month.

I have, I've done a ton of charity for things, you know, cooking at events, but you know, I- - The law precludes you from giving leftover food, correct?

If it's been served at all, is that right?

- Yes, yes, and yeah, I, you can't do that.

[laughing] - Yeah, it's a difficult thing.

You were blessed with twins?

- [Vivian] Yes.

- Are they gonna grow up to follow Mom's pursuit?

- I would say at this point, absolutely not.

- They could be managers of these restaurants.

- Well, you know, they see, it's interesting, people always are like, you know, do your kids love to cook?

And I think because it's my work, it's not something that they are drawn to.

They're always like, trying to get me out of the kitchen, so they do love to eat, though.

[laughing] - We all do.

Vivian Howard, I'm delighted to have you on Side by Side.

You're an intriguing and interesting human being.

You're making some good things happen in the communities in North Carolina and beyond, and I wanna wish you the very, very best with your restaurants, your writing, and your life.

- Thank you.

- [Announcer] Funding for a Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by.

- [Announcer] Here's to those that rise and shine, to friendly faces doing more than their part, and to those who still enjoy the little things.

You make it feel like home.

Ashley HomeStore, this is home.

- [Announcer] For over 60 years, the everyday leaders at the Budd Group have been committed to providing smart, customized facility solutions to our clients and caring for the communities we serve.

[soft music] - [Announcer] Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally, thanks to our teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated, your local bottler.

[upbeat music]